Atheism / Belief and Bible and Church and Jesus and Mark Driscoll and Obama and Politics and Quotes and Comments and Rick Warren and Theology Michael Krahn on 22 Jan 2009 02:11 pm
Rick Warren: In the name of “Yeshua, Isa, Jesus”
For those of you who don’t know, Rick Warren was asked to pray at Barack Obama’s inauguration. He closed his prayer “I humbly ask this in the name of the one who changed my life—Yeshua, ‘Isa, Jesus [Spanish pronunciation], Jesus—who taught us to pray:” followed by The Lord’s Prayer.
Contrary to this report by Daniel Cordell which seems to be making the rounds, I spoke to a Muslim immigrant friend this morning and posed the question “Who is Isa?” Without hesitation, his immediate response was “That’s Jesus in Arabic. That’s the word used for Jesus in Arabic countries.”
This deserves more research, but one to one I think I’ll take the word of an observant Muslim immigrant on the issue.
In Arabic countries, Isa is the name for Jesus and Allah is the name for God. Without prompting, my Muslim friend also said that Christian preachers in the mid-east commonly use Isa and Allah to refer to Jesus and God, and when they do this their meaning is clear to both Christians and Muslims.
Here is Mark Driscoll’s take on Warren’s Prayer.
What do you think?
Michael Krahn (michael.krahn@gmail.com) is a husband, father, Pastor, writer, and recording artist who enjoys books, theology, technology and the Ottawa Senators.
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Buzz it!
on 22 Jan 2009 at 3:08 pm # Michael Segui
red
rouge
rojo
rosso
all different ways of saying the same thing
on 22 Jan 2009 at 3:14 pm # Reid Davis
You say po-tay-to, I say po-tah-to.
on 22 Jan 2009 at 5:02 pm # Michael Segui
I like Mr. Driscoll’s post.
The critics of this prayer say more about themselves than they do about the Rev. Warren IMHO.
on 22 Jan 2009 at 7:27 pm # Bruce
And what does it say about us? That we believe in a strict separation of Church and State. That we believe that an explicit Protestant, Christian liturgical act of worship has no place in the inauguration of a President.
If we are a “Christian nation” then I have no problem with Warren’s prayer. Since we are NOT a “Christian nation” Warren’s prayer is rightly viewed as state endorsement of a particular religion.
Bruce
on 22 Jan 2009 at 10:17 pm # Michael Segui
I wasn’t speaking about any critics who want a separation of Church and State. I was speaking of Christian critics who have a problem with Warren using the Arabic (and hence in the critic’s mind: Muslim) name for Jesus.
I think it would have been better if they had prayers from all of the major religions in the inauguration. You are correct… President Obama is the president of Christian Americans just as he is the president of Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist and non-believing Americans.
on 23 Jan 2009 at 1:56 am # Noah Johnson
Michael, you should look a little deeper into the issue. It is clear from wickapedia and many other Arabic Christian resources that the differences between Isa of the Quran and the Jesus of the Bible are very different and that they are indeed differentiated by those Christians in the Arab world. As too Rick Warrens meaning or intentions i have no idea. But it would be akin to saying “in the name Of Jesus of the latter day saints” which i would assume would find a similar reaction
on 23 Jan 2009 at 2:43 am # Michael Krahn
Hey Noah,
Would it follow then that when he says “Yeshua”, it would be akin to saying “in the name of Jesus of the Jews”? And again, when he says Jesus in Spanish can we assume he is saying “in the name of Jesus of the Catholics”?
Each of these groups believe some things about Jesus that Evangelicals don’t.
on 23 Jan 2009 at 3:18 am # Michael Segui
Oh I am quite familiar with the Muslim views on Jesus… and we must remember that not all Arabs are Muslim.
on 23 Jan 2009 at 3:19 am # Michael Segui
Excellent point, Mike. You summed up quite nicely exactly what I was thinking.
on 23 Jan 2009 at 3:51 am # Noah Johnson
Good points Mr. Krahn but lets remember we are talking about definitions of names.
i would make this distinction: the jews see Jesus or in Hebrew Yeshua as a fraud and not thier Messiah, but Yeshua would be the Hebrew Christians name for Him
Second the spanish Jesus would also be used by spanish christians
the difference here is that in the Arabic speaking world thier are 2 names with seperate definitions that suit thier beliefs.
the first is Isa a prophet from the Quran. he is niether God nor Messiah. he did not die on the cross or rise for our sins and in essence he was a prophet nothing more.
the second is Yasu who is from the Bible, true God of True God, the Messiah, the king of kings, the one who died and rose again for the forgivness of our sins.
Your confusing language and definition, all the other names used by Rick are used by those chritians who speak those languages( ie hebrew,english, spanish )but the Arabic name isa speaks of an islamic prophet he should have used the Arabic name Yasu the only True God Our Savior
on 23 Jan 2009 at 5:20 am # Michael Segui
Does anyone know if Rick Warren has commented on this at all? Is this a big issue only in the Evangelical community or are others miffed as well?
on 23 Jan 2009 at 2:49 pm # Radu Raducan
Well, I don’t know about the other “communities” but, here in Romania, my “community” is miffed that he paused in his “prayer” to receive applause. At least, that is what it appeared he was doing. To whom was he praying? I think it was a middle of the road, politically correct speech. Rick Warren has not proven, at least to me, to be an effective voice for the evangelical community. Franklin Graham, now, that man has some intestinal fortitude. He’d have prayed correctly…and I think that is why he would never be invited.
on 23 Jan 2009 at 2:53 pm # Jake Klassen
I have found the comments to Warren’s prayer here quite interesting. I’ve quite enjoyed reading it actually, I have to say though I appreciated Noah’s clarification between language and definition. Quite insightful. Thanks for that tidbit, it gives me more to think about, and more to evaluate.
on 23 Jan 2009 at 3:06 pm # Michael Krahn
Noah,
What I see in your logic is this:
Jewish beliefs about Yeshua – false
Hebrew Christian beliefs about Yeshua – true
Therefore, Yeshua is a legitimate name for Jesus
Some Catholic beliefs about Jesus – false
Evangelical beliefs about Jesus – true
Therefore, Jesus is a legitimate name for Jesus (this one was kind of obvious ;-) )
Muslim beliefs about Isa – false
Arab Christian beliefs about Isa – true
Therefore, Isa is NOT a legitimate name for Jesus?
You said: “all the other names used by Rick are used by those Christians who speak those languages” Please re-read my post. I am satisfied with the answer I got directly from my practicing Muslim friend who replied without hesitation that Isa is the word used for Jesus in Arabic countries, and that Christians in those countries commonly refer to the real (by our definition) Jesus as Isa and to the real God as Allah.
There may be some regional variance in this usage, but we know the above for a fact.
on 23 Jan 2009 at 4:19 pm # Michael Segui
I will ask my Muslim and Arabic friends as well to see what they have to say.
Cheers,
Mike
on 23 Jan 2009 at 5:02 pm # Noah Johnson
I would be interested to hear from other Arab Christians about this so please post your findings Mr. Segui.
Mr. Kahn thanks for your responses i always enjoy a robust conversation and i see your point, and if christians in those arab speaking countries dont differentiate between isa and yasu then i concede the point. all the info i could find says otherwise however hearing it straight from the horses mouth was not one of those resourses. I would ask you this, is your friend a muslim? is his native tounge Arabic? or does he only use Arabic in his worship of allah? what country is he from? and what does he know about the name Yasu? i would love to hear his response to the last question in particular, thanks Mr. Kahn.
Also i think its fair to say i highly doubt Rick Warren used the name Isa over Yasu intentionally.
on 23 Jan 2009 at 5:12 pm # Michael Krahn
Here’s a bit more second-hand, first-hand (is that three hands in all
?!?!?) testimony from a blog post found here:
http://phoenixpreacher.com/cms/?p=3701
“This is ridiculous. I’ve got on my desk 3 testimonies from Arabic speaking believers (which I cannot share more details of) who referred to Jesus as “Isa.”
There are a lot of Arabic Christians in the world who have come out of Islam that call Jesus “Isa.” Are they any less saved than those of us who call upon the English transliteration of the Greek transliteration of the Hebrew name Yeshua.?”
on 23 Jan 2009 at 8:40 pm # Nancy
Part of me can’t believe the amount of energy and time that is being spent on analyzing this prayer.
First of all, do we know anything about Rick Warren? I’m not going to pretend to know him well because I don’t but have read enough and seen enough to know that he wouldn’t take the responsibility of this prayer lightly. (Matthew 7:17-19) With that said, who do you think he consulted in preparation for this? Would he not have been on his hands and knees before God petitioning Him for guidance and wisdom? Wouldn’t he (Rick) have summoned his mentors and prayer warriors to uphold him in prayer for such a signifcant event as this? It wouldn’t make sense to me any other way, so we can then be confident that God did answer His request. (Matt. 21:22, Mark 11:24) I’m quite certain he didn’t just prance up there and rattle off the first thing that came to mind. By criticizing his word choice, are we not criticizing a fellow servant of our Lord and Saviour whom he is seeking to serve whole heartedly? And in so doing, aren’t we calling into question God’s direction? (assuming Rick was obedient)
Look at the big picture! Jesus was controversial too when He walked the earth. He had the guts to say it like it was and was criticized for it.
Rather than be devisive, why not praise God for a remarkable opportunity to bring the country before Him in prayer at such a historical moment in time and applaude the attempt at reaching out to others of differents faiths to find or gain some common ground! God is God and will use it to His glory and honour! We don’t always understand but need to leave it to Him. (Proverbs 3:5-6)
on 23 Jan 2009 at 9:45 pm # Bruce
Nancy,
Warren prayed a prayer in a political context. It wasn’t simply “just” a prayer. Warren read the prayer. It was not extemporaneous. I am sure he weighed every word carefully and prayed EVERY word he meant to pray. His prayer was not a spontaneous utterance to God.
My objections to Warren’s prayer are clear. It was a blatantly sectarian prayer, complete with the crowd being led in a Protestant, Christian liturgical prayer. In a pluralistic, secular state such prayers have no place.
So Warren got some words in for Jesus? What difference did it make? In what way was the Kingdom of God advanced?
Public prayers are calculated political moves. Look at the three who prayed…….Robinson, the gay bishop. Lowery, the black civil rights activist. Warren, the Evangelical. Pretty well covers the special interest groups. (and yes I am a Obama supporter and I voted for him)
I do find the Isa discussion interesting.
Bruce
on 24 Jan 2009 at 2:26 am # Nancy
Bruce, we agree on the point that Rick’s prayer was intentional.
My questions to you are these? Do we contextualize when & what situations Jesus fits into? If so, what is the criteria for doing this? Wouldn’t Rick be chalked up as a hypocrite to pray anything other than a prayer to Jesus? Why should he shy away from his convictions because of the situation/context? How can you say that his prayer didn’t make a difference? How would you ever know? Is Jesus in a box and restricted to only being effective in non-political arenas? How do you know the Kingdom of Heaven wasn’t advanced?
So what about Obama’s array of special interest groups? God is limited in His power and can’t speak through people of special interest groups? God can’t use the political maneuvering for His purposes?
on 24 Jan 2009 at 3:22 am # Bruce
Michael,
I am not very good at hypothetical questions. In the grand scheme of things I can’t imagine what “good” Warren’s prayer did, unless we think God was waiting on Warren to pray before he did some “good”? I am not sure I believe in “that” God.
There are theological presuppositions that lie behind your questions, and they are suppositions I probably to not accept, so it is probably difficult for us to discuss this since we may have very different views of God.
How do we know “good” is done? How do we “know” the kingdom of God is advanced? By the things people do and do not do. The only physical manifestation is our works.
I believe in a strict separation of Church and State. Warren’s prayer crossed the line. I saw the prayer as the government endorsing a particular (evangelical, protestant, Christian) religion. This is not a theological issue for me……it is a constitutional one.
I don’t know anything about God’s power, how he speaks, to whom, through whom, when and where. Neither does anyone else. I do know that I can “see” the works that people do and that is the only way to make proper judgments. On this issue I found that Warren’s prayer was quite inappropriate. I would rather see NO prayers at all. I do not believe the US is a Christian nation. We are a secular and pluralistic state.
That Obama is a Christian is fine by me but his religion is of no consequence. If he was a Sunni Muslim it still should have been of no consequence. Religion should never enter the picture when it comes to government.
Bruce
on 25 Jan 2009 at 7:55 pm # Michael Krahn
Conclusion: those of us still discussing Warren’s use of Isa to refer to Jesus are engaging in “inside baseball”. “The expression “inside baseball” is sometimes used as a metaphor for details or minutia of a subject so detailed that they generally are not of normal concern for outsiders.”
The end.
on 26 Jan 2009 at 6:41 pm # Michael Segui
Hey!!! I am on the outside and I am still playing ball….
on 27 Jan 2009 at 2:06 pm # Michael Segui
I got one response so far from my wife’s cousin’s husband who is Muslim (not sure of his nationality)… according to him all of the Arabic Christians HE knows refer to Jesus as Yeshua.
I am still waiting to hear back from a friend in Lebanon. His background is Muslim (but he worships the god of techno and raves)… but he says he has a number of Arabic Christian friends living in Beruit. I will post something when I hear from him.
Cheers,
Mike
on 27 Jan 2009 at 3:10 pm # Michael Krahn
Mr. Segui,
Thank you for your continued efforts in solving this.
on 27 Jan 2009 at 6:39 pm # Michael Segui
No problem, Mr. Krahn. I find this thread VERY interesting. I just wish there were more posts from other readers.
on 29 Jan 2009 at 12:25 am # Ghada Obaid
A friend asked me to comment on this, being a Christian from the Arab world so here goes :)
I haven’t read all the comments here, so my understanding of this article is that there was an objection to the use of “Isa” as the name for Jesus in Rick Warren’s prayer, correct?
Strictly speaking, “Isa” is the Arabic name for Jesus. However, it is not the name that is ever used in Arab churches – at least, not mine. I believe the reason for that is to distinguish our beliefs from those of Muslims. To the Muslims, “Isa” is a prophet born of the virgin Mary. To the Christians, “Jesus” is the Son of God born of the virgin Mary. There is a big difference between the 2, and to avoid any confusion, Isa is never used.
I think in the end the issue is in the motivation behind using the name “Isa”, rather than twhether it is the same name in Arabic. Is he trying to say we have common ground in our belief in Jesus? If so, he’s badly mistaken and misleading – this is exactly the situation my church attempts to avoid, in my humble opinion.
on 29 Jan 2009 at 3:26 am # Ghada
After posting this message, I had a discussion around this with another Arab Christian. She pointed out to me that the name “Isa” only came into existence when Islam came to be. The name used by Arab Christians was, and remains to be, “Yassou” – a derivative of Yeshua. The name “Isa” is definitely not in our vocabulary.
Kind regards,
Ghada
on 29 Jan 2009 at 3:29 am # Michael Krahn
It seems there is some regional variance issues with the idea of using the word Isa as a direct substitute for Jesus because we have various people with authority commenting opposite ideas.
on 29 Jan 2009 at 4:10 am # Ghada
I am extremely surprised to hear this – I have lived in African and Gulf Arab countries for many years, and have never – and I repeat NEVER – heard a Christian refer to Jesus as “Isa”.
I thought that perhaps a recent Muslim convert to Christianity may refer to Jesus as Isa, but I’ve listened to many during their testimonies, and I don’t recall anyone using the name Isa.
Can you please clarify for me who these people of authority are? I am curious…
Kind regards,
Ghada
on 29 Jan 2009 at 4:13 am # Michael Krahn
I am referring to the Muslim friend I consulted and the testimony of a missionary.
on 29 Jan 2009 at 5:01 am # MatthewW.
It is highly important whether we pray in the Name of Jesus or not. I think John Piper has a good way of describing it (this is a paraphrase):
“We to the Father, through the power and leading of the Spirit, in the Name of the Son. This is the general trend for prayer in the bible. We can pray to the Spirit, or the Son, but generally, we should pray in the aforementioned way.”
That, however is not the general thrust of this discussion. It appears that Warren wanted to be explicitly clear that he was praying in the Name of Jesus Christ and no other name. He probably consulted many former muslims and would have chosen the word they recommended. Regardless, the muslim world knows that Warren was regarding Jesus (Isa, if you will) as God.
Now whether it was appropriate to ask a Christian to pray a Christian prayer for the invocation and benediction is another issue. Should we restrict the president in who he may choose for his inauguration? Should we tell him he needs to include a muslim, jew, hindu, buddhist, etc. in his cabinet? Was George Washington wrong in leading everyone to church even though many of the founding fathers weren’t Christians and some (John Adams and Ben Franklin especially) worked very hard to ensure that America would remain a secular nation and never become a Christian nation?
I know the constitution says that no religion will be hindered or promoted by a government. How far do we take that? Do we say every religion gets their chance to speak, or say that no religion gets a chance to publicly thank God/god (and therefore potentially hinder them)? You see the dilemma…
(P.S. Sorry for the long post. I am not that succinct and I find it important to be specific so that I say exactly what I’d like to say without having the particulars misunderstood.)
on 29 Jan 2009 at 6:34 pm # noah Johnson
Ghada, It was great to hear from a Christian Brother who has lived and expierienced the Church in Arab speaking countries, thanks for the insight and clarification on the issue.
Godspeed Noah
on 30 Jan 2009 at 6:38 am # Adam Minneapolis
Some very interesting points have been brought up so far. If it’s ok, I’d like to post a few comments/questions I posted on a couple of other blog sites which are discussing the same question:
I certainly do not support Rick Warren. I read and appreciated the excellent book, “Deceived on Purpose” by Warren Smith, exposing Rick Warren’s New Age leanings. Having said this, though, I hesitate to assail him for his use of the name “Isa” in his prayer.
I lived in Malaysia, a Muslim country, for six years, and “Isa” is the one and only word in the Malay language used to refer to Jesus. This word was borrowed from Arabic hundreds of years ago, and has long been a mainstay in the Malay language. The handful of former Muslims I had the privilege to know, who are now genuine followers of Christ, continue to use “Isa” to refer to Christ. Their understanding of who He is, of course, has dramatically changed, and they affirm with conviction that He is God and the Son of God.
In my interactions with Muslims there (speaking in the Malay language), I did use “Isa” to refer to Christ. With many of my friends, quite honestly, I would have received a blank look had I attempted to use the English name “Jesus” or any other alternative to “Isa.” [Any other alternative would have involved the use of a language foreign to them. Many of my friends there did not speak English.]
Question #1: Should the Malay believers in Malaysia (still a small number, by the way) introduce a new term for Christ other than “Isa”?
Question #2: Isn’t it true that many Americans also have misconceptions about who Jesus is? As we share our faith, is it not our responsibility to help clear these up, and to share who Jesus is according to Scripture?
P.S. I have very little knowledge regarding whether or not Arabic Christians use the name “Isa” to refer to Jesus. I only know that Malay speaking believers in Malaysia and Indonesia do. Incidentally, they also refer to God as “Allah.” The only other alternative in the Malay language (which is spoken in Malaysia and Indonesia) for God is “Tuhan.” However, “Tuhan” often denotes “Lord” when coupled together with a reference to “God.” So, for example, “Allah Tuhan” = “Lord God” in numerous Scripture texts in the Malay-language Bible.
P.P.S. While there aren’t yet very many Malay believers in Malaysia, there is a very significant number of Malay-speaking believers in Indonesia. Unless my reasoning is flawed (and it certainly could be), it seems to me that if Rick Warren is preaching another Jesus because he prayed in the name of “Isa,” then more than 10 million believers in Indonesia are guilty of the same.
on 30 Jan 2009 at 6:38 am # Adam Minneapolis
I need to make one small correction to my post above. There are a limited number of people in Malaysia and Indonesia who would understand if I referred to Jesus as “Jesus Christus” (Portuguese pronunciation). This is true because the Portuguese once colonized the region many decades ago. However, I quickly gave up trying to use that phrase when I lived there because, as I said, I received so many blank stares and it created a significant language barrier. New Malay believers would likely encounter the same language (and cultural) barrier if they tried to share their faith with Muslim family members, while using “Jesus Christus” rather than “Isa.”
on 19 Feb 2009 at 5:14 am # bethraham
Rick Warren said that the reason he used what he thought were simply alternative words in different languages to mean the same “Jesus” is that he had been put under a lot of pressure to NOT use the name “Jesus” at all in his prayer. He said he would have used even more different languages for the word “Jesus” if he had known them.
Perhaps he would have been better off to stick to his beliefs and dispite the pressure to stick to the English language that the rest of his speach was in – just using the English name for Jesus.
perhaps it would have been even better if he had used the FULL NAME = Lord Jesus Christ. That would have left no doubt. Anyone could then have translated the name (and the rest of the speach) into whatever language they so desired.
on 20 Jul 2009 at 10:53 pm # rickmoe
You have got to be kidding?!
I just wasted minutes of my life reading what you all had to say because I was wondering if anyone was ever going to get to the real issue.
The issue is; What Are You Doing On Earth for Heaven’s Sake!
Warren, Driscoll and so many others have made it plain by there fruits that they love God and people by following him and by winning the lost.
We would be wise to follow their lead and their encouragment.
By the way you don’t slow down these guys, you just grieve God’s heart by speaking against his anointed.
I am out of here. They are closing the doors to the place.
moe
on 16 Nov 2009 at 4:18 am # Farzana
Interesting discussion.
Isa, while the name may not be etymologically related to the original Aramaic Y’Shua, should be considered an acceptable name for the Biblical Jesus, considering the many ethno-linguistic groups (not only the Malay, but several Turkic Central Asian ones, the Persian/Dari language groups, and probably others) which use it consistently in their translations of the New Testament. While it is true that the Q’uranic understanding of the “prophet” Isa is very different than the Biblical understanding of the Savior and Messiah, that does not mean they were different people, but rather that there are differing perceptions of the same historical person. There is no record of a DIFFERENT person named Isa (other than the historical, Biblical Y’Shua), and it is clear that the Muslim use of the name intends to indicate the same person, though it departs from historical accounts much closer to the actual events and person in question in serious ways, such as claiming that He did not die on a cross.
Christians speaking Kazakh, Uzbek, or Persian who use the name “Isa” consider Him to be the Son of God, the Savior of the world, the One who died and rose again to conquer death. Muslims in these places use the same name to refer to someone they consider to be just another prophet, with some special titles (including “Messiah” and “Spirit of God.”) Interestingly, in Arabic, as was mentioned in several of the posts, there is a differentiation of the names, as most Arab Christians and Arabic Bibles use the word “Y’Sua” instead of “Isa.”
To me, the essence of the issue is that there is one Jesus, whose Name is powerful, regardless of the language or translation you use, and regardless of misperceptions about Him from any variety of angles. Any name can be distorted, just as many people use the word “God” or “god” and mean an astounding plethora of self-defined things. But I am pretty sure the Almighty is smart enough to figure out if you’re talking to Him.
Thanks for listening.
on 16 Nov 2009 at 10:12 am # Adam Minneapolis
Farzana,
Very well said. This controversy really is mostly about “differing perceptions of the same historical person,” as you said.
on 20 Jan 2010 at 2:49 pm # jeff
u said quote " the first is Isa a prophet from the Quran . he is neither God nor Messiah ect …" u have one mistake muslim do believe that Isa (jesus ) is the Messiah …