Dealing with Difficult Scripture

I am formulating a response in my head and will put it in writing later today. Plus, I want to make sure I understand the CONTEXTS of these passages.

Need a little help in understanding 4 and 5 myself.

#5 is fairly clear that to believe in god is to believe that he created all…all the love, all the humanity, the sunshine…..all the death, fear, hunger, hatred, etc…
It kinda clears satan of the bad rap he has been given

#0 (the opening remarks) – i absolutely agree that it is most Christian indeed to believe the Bible in its entirety. and while this probably sounds like a copout, i don’t believe that necessitates being able to explain or even understand every word of it (but that does not invalidate the importance of studying, pondering, and praying about every word). i believe that part of the essence of faith is believing even things that are difficult for me to understand. i also recognize that because of original sin my entire being is corrupted, even my reason… especially my reason.

These are just a few examples of evil in the bible. There are many more that claim Women should be slaves to men. Men should NOT have long hair, you can only get into heaven if you are poor, etc. It’s fine to look at the bible and see the beuty and good in it, but you must also realize it preaches so much hate and death that it must be confusing to christians. Have we as humans not evolved past this hatred and judgement. I’m curious, how many christians actually follow the bible word for word? I guess a more shocking way of putting it would be, “Have you done God’s will and killed a Homosexual lately?”

Scriptures 1-3 are old testament scriptures. We no longer live under many of the old testament rules and laws abided by in the old testament times. The whole point of Jesus coming to earth and dying for our sins was to wipe out our sins and in so doing we no longer just live by a set of rules but through a personal relationship with God. We as christians as well as non-Christians will answer for our actions at the judgement. Number 4 and 5 I am still working on.

First I would like to address the statement: In my opinion, to be Christian means you must believe EVERY word the bible says or else you are a cafeteria christian (picks and chooses which parts he wants to live by). This statement assumes that one who doesn’t live by the regulations of certain parts of Scripture doesn’t really believe every word of the Bible. That is the farthest thing from the truth and is also a distortion of what Scripture teaches.

Second, the first four passages of Scripture are dealing with the Law of Moses which was given ONLY to the Jews. Since it is necessary to let Scripture interpret Scripture when it comes to Christian obligations concerning the Law, there are several passages in the New Testament that help. First the Jerusalem council recorded in Acts 15 explicitly states what obligations non-Jewish Christians have concerning the law. Second Paul, in Romans 3 & 7, as well as Galatians 3, takes up a discussion of the law as it relates to those who are Christians (all of them show that those who believe in Jesus are no longer judged by the law APART from His atoning sacrifice).

Furthermore, the Law of Moses, which the first four selections deal with, were prescriptive for Israelite society much like the laws of the United States prescribe certain punishments for certain crimes. Since the church is not a physical nation-state God never gave it the authority to carry out capital punishment for sins (nor in my opinion should it ever claim to have that authority). However, Romans 13 makes clear that Christians are to submit to the political authorities who do have the authority to exercise that type of punishment.

As to the final passage, I am not sure what the problem seems to be. The entire passage is a presentation of the sovereignty of God over the entire creation. I find it interesting that an atheist would cite it since Isaiah 45:9 states “Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker . . .”

Dan Hamm,

It is anachronistic to look back thousands of years and make judgments about a time when all nations had laws like this, and most were much worse.

Second, the Bible does not preach hate and death. If you are going to make claims like this then my suggestion is spend a couple of years studying the historical context and the world that existed when these texts were written, then read the Bible in light of what you have learned.

Third, your condemnations seem to carry a bit of hate with them, or at least a bit of intolerance towards Christianity.

Read Scot McKnight, Blue Parakeet, it’ll answer some questions. Nobody, and I mean nobody actually follows everything that scriptures say. They’d be in jail.

df

I agree with James in that the first problem that must be dealt with is the statement, ” In my opinion, to be Christian means you must believe EVERY word the bible says or else you are a cafeteria christian.” Don’t even bother trying to address the questions without establishing some kind of reasonable foundation; that is, explaining a bit about exegesis.

I’ve heard many atheists state unbelievable propositions in order to strike them down, then claim they’ve proven something. Don’t play those games. The question is not even whether you believe everything in the Bible; the question is, are you willing to try to understand what the Bible means in the proper context. If you’re not willing to do that, the questions are meaningless. This is, I think, a near equivalent of Jesus refusing to produce a sign for the skeptics.

Derek » Good advice. I’ll be finishing The Blue Parakeet tonight and will put up a review in a few days.

It shouldn’t matter when the scripture was written. God is all-knowing and all seeing right? didn’t he foresee that these laws and scripture would become obsolete when he made them? If not then he isn’t very powerful at all and we certainly then are not following any sort of “God’s plan”

I mean no hate by any means and I apologize for coming off that way. I just have a hard time understanding how a book that clearly has a lot of evil and hatred can be known as “the good book”. New Testament or Old Testament….it shouldn’t matter. God shouldn’t need a reprint.

There’s a lot to be said about your reader’s introductory comments:

In my opinion, to be Christian means you must believe EVERY word the bible says or else you are a cafeteria christian (picks and chooses which parts he wants to live by.)

No where in the bible does it say that this is a prerequisite to being a Christian. It would have been impossible for the Christians in the early church to live up to this standard, as the Bible had not been completed.

In fact, the bible seems to teach just the opposite: that we are given authority to “bind and loose”. Rob Bell talks about this in his book “Velvet Elvis”:

Notice what Jesus says in the book of Matthew: “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

What he is doing here is significant. He is giving his followers the authority to make new interpretations of the Bible. He is giving them permission to say, “Hey, we think we missed it before on that verse, and we’ve recently come to the conclusion that this is what it actually means.” (p. 50)

We see a great biblical example of this activity in Acts 15, where the church makes a decision that gentiles would not be forced to perform circumcision in order to follow Jesus. What amazes me is the first sentence in this passage:

“For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay no greater burden on you than these few requirements: You must abstain from eating food offered to idols, from consuming blood or the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality. If you do this, you will do well. Farewell.”

Read that again. It seemed good to them. Imagine the weight of this decision. The tradition passed down from Abraham that was the promise to the Jews has just been wiped away. It’s lost its relevance. Even the rules that remain in this passage have long since been “loosed” as well (do you know if your meat was strangled?).

Regarding your last passage, I think a good perspective on this comes from James, the step-brother of Jesus:

Dear brothers and sisters, when troubles come your way, consider it an opportunity for great joy. For you know that when your faith is tested, your endurance has a chance to grow. So let it grow, for when your endurance is fully developed, you will be perfect and complete, needing nothing.

As C.S. Lewis wrote, “God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks to us in our conscience, but shouts in our pains: It is His megaphone to rouse a deaf world.” (The Problem of Pain, 1940).

Let’s not change the bible from a narrative and poetry to a book of propositional truth. I hope no one does that with my life.

I hope this helps!

Dan,

Re: obeying everything in scripture.

One of the things the bible is is a work of literature (it’s more than that, but for the sake of this part of the argument…). The interpretation matrix you’re imposing on the bible is understandable to me (since we have a common background) but try applying it to another work of literature. For example, would you say that “Schindler’s List” is a “good book”? If you say yes, does that mean that you condone the holocaust? Does it mean that you approve of a guard sitting on his balcony shooting prisoners at random? My guess is that you’d say “no”.

In the realm of fiction, if a novelist writes a story where his characters only take actions of which the author approves, there will be precious little learned from the story. However, if the novelist allows his characters to take actions he disapproves of, the story will unfold with the consequences of those actions and the author will effectively illustrate and communicate his larger message.

Dan, When you say “It shouldn’t matter when the scripture was written. God is all-knowing and all seeing right? didn’t he foresee that these laws and scripture would become obsolete when he made them?”, what you are doing is once again imposing your restrictions on what God should or shouldn’t have done. The Bible is many things, as a collection of writings that vary from apocalyptic to poetry to history to correspondence. You can’t even impose the same set of “rules” from book to book.

That being said, the total picture that the Bible presents is much more than the mere sum of the individual books; if you can back up a bit, there is a story revealed that as Bultmann said, rises to the mythological. Not that it is not “true” or “inspired,” but that it is much more than a collection of facts, rules, and so on. But, to read the Bible with your set of imposed expectations is to miss all of that. And, for some people, this is a convenient way to disregard the true message of the Bible.

Dan,

Again I must advise you to not impose an anachronistic bias against the Bible. Just in case you don’t understand what I mean by anachronistic, I am simply saying do not read your contemporary worldview back into a text that contains the presentation of a vastly different worldview that is thousands of years removed from your own. What you are doing is judging a society based on standards that weren’t even possible in that age. For example, it would be wrong to view slavery in the Roman empire in the same way as what was done to Africans in America. In the Roman empire, slavery was a socio-economic necessity on the part of a slave who could pay off debt, guarantee survival, all the while learning a trade, and then when he was freed would be granted citizenship. In fact many freed slaves often became the doctors and politicians in that society. That is vastly different than the evil form of slavery that characterized the treatment of Africans in America. But by your standard I can impose my view of the evil of slavery in America onto a socio-economic situation thousands of years early as if the two are the same exact thing. That is why it is VITAL to understand historical contexts. If you are unwilling to do that then you are really stating your unwillingness to honestly consider what the book you are condemning as hateful and evil actually presents. As such, it is not worth discussing the matter with you any further b/c your bias prevents you from considering any other views.

Furthermore, it amazes me that the supposed rationalism of atheist positions is actually not rational at all b/c it often refuses to go through the process of rational inquiry in that the important evidence that establishes proper understanding is rejected. For example you state, “It shouldn’t matter when the scripture was written.” If you are unwilling to establish the historical occasion that informs your understanding of a text then all you are doing is presenting your biases as rational conclusions, which they are not.

Finally as you state, “God is all-knowing and all seeing right? didn’t he foresee that these laws and scripture would become obsolete when he made them?” This is a statement that mixes truth with sarcasm, which is unfortunate. However, God revealed these things in human language thus bringing the text into the realm of human language, literary forms, human society, and human history. Thus, if you really want to engage in this type of discussion, don’t you think as a rational being you need to educate yourself in these four areas. If your answer is no, then again you are proving that your biases are overriding your ability to engage in a rational discussion, which again most atheist claim their arguments are based in.

Just to show that I am not holding you to a standard I do not hold for myself, I will tell you I spent a year studying the best arguments put forth by the world’s most recognized atheist philosophers. All I ask is that the atheist opponents of Christianity do the same rather than presenting their prejudgments as rational conclusions.

I’ve had very limited success explaining parts of the Old Testament. Even considering the historical context it seems unsatisfying to me. For an easier example, let’s take the ten commandments. Why ten? Why these ten? I think God was spelling them out so specifically because the people of Israel couldn’t understand generalities. This is borne out when they added thousands of their own, much more specific, laws.
Okay, so why passages telling the Israelites to perform genocide? Or the above examples? I can agree that the coming of Jesus did away with a lot of the old laws, but that isn’t a satisfying answer either. How could genocide ever have made sense? How is that different from modern atrocities in the name of religion? I’m afraid I don’t have answers. I’m willing to learn here.

First of all, as an Atheist, I don’t believe the bible to be anything more than a book written by man.
What I was curious on finding out the most was how Christians justified some very disturbing scripture. I am very pleased with a lot of the answers here as they show the convictions of true Christians sticking to their faith. Am I converted? Not in the least, but I like what I’ve read. Answering these questions doesn’t make God any more real for me but it helps me understand how Christians percieve the bible in it’s whole form. I hope I have not offended anyone or seemed like I was attacking. That was never my intention.

The 10 commandments have always bothered me too. Why those 10? He left out so many things that are far more vile than what is on that list. The first 4 alone are all about not disrespecting God himself. What about rape? Incest? Genocide? Racism?

I’m aware times were different back then and the bilble more depicts that generation but does that not strengthen the argument that it was written by man of that era?

I will not attempt to tackle every verse mentioned above to try to explain my approach to understanding God’s Word.

When asked to explain a single verse of the Bible it is important to put it into context. First that verse in the group of verses it is found. Then in the chapter, then book, then in Testament and finally the entire Bible. In order to do all this is does require study and most importantly guidance by the Holy Spirit. His Word is not random thoughts like most peoples blogs. It is designed to show His sovereignty. The Old Testament is the foundation (recorded history) of God’s plan. Jesus the Christ is the completion of that plan and the New Testament is the means in which God recorded (for our benefit) how His plan was completed in Christ. It also documents how it set free this world by using ordinary people to do astounding acts of faith. If His Word is read like a textbook you will find answers. But if you study His Word to find truth you will find it.

When you are teaching your child how to walk, do you break down every motion necessary in order for her to take that first step? When you are teaching math, do you first teach a child trigonometry?

The ten commandments are an attempt at the lowest-common-denominator when it comes to how we are to relate to both God and humanity. If I rape someone, I am committing adultery. If I commit genocide, I am killing someone.

Jesus brought these down to an even lower common denominator. He said we are to “love God” and “love our neighbour.” These two commands encompass so much of our human experience.

- If I love God, I realize that money is not my God, and therefore have control of my finances.
- If I love God, I realize that sacrifice is a huge part of love.
- If I love my neighbour, I will not kill, hurt, embarrass, covet, or harm them.
- If I love my neighbour, I will look after the environment around me, as the neighbours in my future must live in this world after me.
- If I love God and my neighbour, I will take greater care of the poor and suffering, not just in a third-world country where there is no personal contact, but here in my city of London where I can hear and smell the despair.

In the this age when people can’t understand what was written thousands of years ago and so many don’t even believe he exits for various reasons, why doesn’t he show them/us? I mean really show us, not just in ways we are too blind to see. Give science seekers a hard pill to swallow.

John, I don’t mean this to sound like a smart arse answer but: read the book – the Bible I mean… the whole thing. Take your time, wrestle with it honestly, and see if God doesn’t reveal himself to you in ways you never expected.

I hear ya Mike. It’s been two decades since the last time I read it cover to cover.

That still wouldn’t work for me as I would just credit it up to a good author….an author who can make people believe in absurd tales of a man living in a whale for 3 days, a tale of a man building a boat with 2 of every species on it, etc…
If God truly exists, why not at least perform one of those miracles he so often performs in the bible? Why not make it impossible to not believe? Why not kill the innocent first born child of everyone in Egypt like he did to punish Pharaoh? Sorry I had to throw that in there.

God is sovereign. Yes… Even over satan. Soli Deo Gloria!

I’m curious what you guys think of these very old quotes. I got them from the film “A Rough History of Disbelief”

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent.
Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent.
Is God both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
– Epicurus

“I have seldom met an intelligent person whose views were not narrowed and distorted by religion.”
– James Buchanan

“Fear is the mother of all gods. Nature does all things spontaneously, by herself, without the meddling of the gods.”
– Lucretius

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as
false, and by the rulers as useful.”
– Seneca

Dan Hamm,

Dan Hamm,

Sounds to me as though maybe your views are narrowed and distorted by other athiest’s as well. By the verse’s they have picked apart to make what has been written seem like poppycock. I am no expert in the bible, what it means to be a believer, nor am I an “ideal” Christian but it sounds like you have already judged the book without reading it in it’s entirety and an open mind. It has been closed shut due to the fact that you don’t even believe God exits thus any explanation is invalid. Just a thought. See you at band practice my friend.

I agree with Dan’s statement:

“If God truly exists, why not at least perform one of those miracles he so often performs in the bible? Why not make it impossible to not believe? ”

This is a question I have struggled with from day one. There have been some theories that have crossed my path, but nothing that truly answers the question. I think it was Lee Stroebel that said (please correct me if I am wrong and I am paraphrasing) ‘we would have no purpose in life if we knew everything (about God) and didn’t need faith.’
If only Eve hadn’t eaten the fruit then we would know. Or did she eat it cause she felt she needed some purpose? (JK)

Unfortunately some of us do experience miracles but still continue to doubt Him because we constantly need reassurance he is there. Faith just doesn’t seem to be adaquate for many. Then there are those that have experienced tragedy, death, and evil (in some form), sometimes more than once. How do you explain a compassionate loving God to those people?

I’m sure the bible is enlightening and can open ones eyes to the wonder that is God as long as you are willing to appraoch it with a lack of common sense. I just can’t even give the book serious consideration when most of the stories in the bible are so absurd. Have you really ever just sat down and thought about what it is exactly that you believe? The stories border on just plain silliness. And any book that glorifies racism, sexism, genocide, hatred, and death might make a good read, but I can’t believe an All-Knowing, All-Seeing omnipitent creator could be so evil. I know people say we have to take it in context as to the time is was written and look at the big picture. I don’t accept that. God should hold all his creations to a similar standard regardless of date of creation and isn’t allowed to make mistakes.
That being said, if God exists then he has every chance to prove it to me. He should know where I am everyday. If he fails to acknowledge my existence, why should I acknowledge his?
Plus, the bible reads the world is roughly 6000 years old. Pure absurdity.
And what of other religions? Are yhey all wrong and you’re right? What of past religions that pre-date christianity? What about the fact that the Jesus story pedates Jesus?
I’m not an Atheist because I hate God. I’m not an Atheist just to be different. I’m an Atheist because to me I can’t rationalize it. Once again, I find it absurd.

Dan Hamm:

Before continuing along this course I suggest you read another ancient text, Sun Tzu’s “The Art of War”. Attempting to attack Christians through the bible is much like the American army following the Vietcong into the jungle. You will be easily out numbered and out maneuvered.

A far superior tactic (if you really want a fair debate) is to draw them out into neutral territory. In a situation like this you will be more likely to put the bible on par with all other reference material that you bring to the stage.

Debates like this quickly become a stalemate due to the fact that both sides are using the bible to deny and support the bible. It’s a dog chasing it’s tail in other words.

All in my humble opinion of course.

P.S. Mike, love the blog as always!

You guys think that God should perform regular miracles to prove his greatness? Ignore the parlor tricks and gags depicted in the bible. Stand on the edge of the Grand Canyon for few minutes. Watch an episode of “Planet Earth”.

However I do agree with the point to a degree. If the God of the old testament really demands our servitude then he really should make with a magic show the odd time.

We can debate the validity of the Bible for the rest of our lives and there will still be doubters. My question to the doubters is, When you ponder your own mortality and really consider what comes next after death do you really believe this is it? Deep down everyone believes in something! It is a bigger step of faith to believe in nothing than to believe in God!

Dan, i am enjoying hearing you views. I keep seeing you use words like absurd, sillines and lack of common sense when refering to the bible, God or anybody that believes in it. In my opinion the whole idea of God is anything but common and I can totally see the absurdity when you think from a down to earth logical point of view. I wrestle with it myself. What is silly is that you won’t even take the time to read it anyway, absurd as it seems, to see what all the commotion is about. Why do so many people belive in God and follow His word? What made those non-believers and athiests convert? There’s gotta be something there that brought them over, right? Christians think Richard Dawkins views are absurd but they read his book anyway to find out more about him and his views.

I was pondering my previous statement on the way home from work. If it was impossible not to believe, that would mean we would have no choice but to follow or we would be condemened. Wouldn’t that remove our free will to follow Him?

Is there a movie version of the bible? Anyone who knows me knows I don’t read books but I will watch documenatries and such from either point of view (as I already have from many).

I like Andy Doans reply “Attempting to attack Christians through the bible is much like the American army following the Vietcong into the jungle. You will be easily out numbered and out maneuvered” Touche my friend.

For the record I’ve never read any Richard Dawkins’ books. I’ve seen his movies as well as many pro-bible movies. I like evidence. It helps me come to terms with reality. Pro-bible views never produce evidence, only possibilities. At least science has SOME answers.

I think we can agree to disagree. I’m not a die-hard Dawkins’ guy. He uses the shock factor to get attention the same as anybody else but he sure knows how to connect…almost like a preacher if you will. here’s a quote of his I really like. It makes me happy to be alive.

“By disclaiming the idea of a next life, we can take more excitement in this one. The “here and now” is not something to be endured before eternal bliss or damnation. The “here and now” is all we have, an inspiration to make the most of it. Atheism is life affirming in a way religion can never be. Look around you. Nature demands our attention, begs us to explore and to question. People sometimes say, “There must be more than just this world, than just this life”, but how much more do you want?”

Dan,

You say that the Bible contains hateful and evil things and I will not restate my response here. However, I would like to level the playing field. As an atheist, please explain to me how atheism carried out at the nation-state level is different from what you condemn in Scripture. Take for example the Soviet Union, the largest atheist state that ever existed. The genocide and mass murder committed by the political leadership in that atheistic society make the genocide of Native Americans and the Holocaust look small in comparison. If you compare the evil of the atheistic U.S.S.R. to what is described in the Bible, the Bible looks rather tame by comparison. Therefore, I can draw the conclusion that atheism carried to its logical conclusion is far more evil and destructive than anything else the world has ever seen. How then can you justify being an atheist when your condemnation of what is recorded in the Bible pales in comparison to the fruit of atheism in the the recent past? If you use the same standard towards atheism as you do towards rejecting the Bible and God, I am not sure what kind of religious belief you have left (and yes atheism is a religion because it enters the realm of theology as you have done here to justify your position).

James, your example doesn’t hold true because the acts commited by Aheist’s are individual acts. They are not summoned to do their deeds by some sort of deity or higher being. Atheist’s can be just as evil (if not more) than any religious man, the difference being that the Atheist did it in his own accord and was not following the word of a higher being and thus can be accountable for his actions.
I kinda relate it to that preacher guy who killed an abortion doctor in the states. He claimed he was doing God’s will. There was (and still is) a lot of commotion surrounding that case. If he were an Atheist, he would just simply be a murderer (which he is).

Dan Hamm,

A couple of questions. Who calls murder, murder?, Why is murder, murder? Why is murder wrong if there is no God and I am my own God? Can I not set my own rules because there is no higher authority then me?

Dan,

I reject the premise that each atheist is an independent being. Atheism is a religious system. Furthermore, as Nietzsche’s philosophy shows, once the atheist rejects the existence of God then all moral and rational systems fall as well. Therefore, what the Soviet Union did is carry atheism to it’s logical conclusion. To compare one nut who rejects the moral teachings of Scripture to the manifestation of atheism’s fruit is a straw man. There is no way one can justify murder as an acceptable behavior from Scripture (and to preempt you, captial punishment and war in the ancient world are different than one person killing another person again learn historical contexts). All I am saying is that the Soviet Union’s atrocities are direct results of it’s atheism. Therefore, atheism in practice leads to much more evil and hate than what you claim exists in the Bible. The point is the system you have chosen to embrace IS EXACTLY what you condemn in the Bible and in historical fact is much worse.

If you can’t see this or refuse to acknowledge it then you are blinded by your biases which means you are not really an honest broker in the debate and are just expressing your prejudice against Christians.

Don Snider,

“Why is murder wrong if there is no God and I am my own God?”

Is the fear of God the only thing that keeps you from killing people? Have you talked to a professional about this?

Mike,

This conversation is veering off of the main topic. May I suggest that you break it off into one or two more focused threads based on where this one is going?

One could be: “Do atheists have morals?”

Another: “Does atheism carried to it’s logical conclusion lead to chaos?”

I know that Christians struggle to understand atheism as much as atheists do to Christians. This might help turn the tables a bit.

Yes Andy, I’ve been thinking of doing that… there is so much here that I want to respond to that I haven’t had time for lately.

I disagree Andy. Why must Christians defend themselves here without being able to point out the problems with atheism. Dividing up the discussion does not allow for real debate, unless of course real debate is not the intent here. It is very easy to tell Christians to defend themselves and then when they ask the atheist to do the same thing, somehow it is time to change the nature of the discussion. Questionable to say the least!

Andy Doan

My list of questions about murder are not out of focus to the discussion as I am speaking directly to a statement from Dan Hamm “If he were an Atheist, he would just simply be a murderer (which he is).”

My questions point out a couple of facts. 1) Either you believe in the one true God or a false god. If you are an atheist then you believe in the false god of yourself. 2) It was God who set the guidelines for human behaviour (commandments) and not mankind. If God would have left mankind to rule itself, there would be no mankind.

Guys, Andy’s suggestion is a practical and logistical one. He is not attempting to stifle discussion. He is trying to give it a wider outlet.

When you get this many comments on one post people get tired of scrolling so far down.

If the word of God is the only thing that keeps you from killing, raping, etc, then you should definitely see professional help. We are all born compassionate human beings. Even animals don’t murder for the fun of it. They kill only for survival and to defend themselves or their young. Are lions atheists? How often would a lion kill if it had no intention of eating it’s prey?
We have the brain capacity to reason with eachother instead of using our carnal animal instinct which separates man from beast. We are all just creatures of nature. Not one more significant than the other. Do animals go to heaven? Are spiders God’s creature’s? If I step on one have I murdered?
So do Atheists have morals.? Of course we do.
Their are murderers and what not from every religious/non-religious group. The point of this thread when it was first started was how do Christians defend a Higher God that commands them to commit what our natural born compassion and instinct tells us is wrong?

Dan,

To imply that someone needs professional help because of a believe in the unseen, would imply that you and I both would be seeking assistance for believing in the unseen air that we breath and need to exists. The laws of gravity again are evidential proof of the unseen and I am sure that we both believe gravity effects both our lives in profound ways. No matter how we examine any topic that comes across this blog it will always come down to belief. I but my faith in the one true God who has for some reason found favour in the people He created. So much so that He sent His only Son to die on a cross, and then raise Him from the dead so that we can live in this life with power and freedom (not to mention Heaven after we die). As we do not know each other personally, I can only go from your entries here that you need science, facts and proof to believe in. Science leads to its creator, it tells of his majesty. I pray that your heart has not become to hard to feel the pull of the Holy Spirit as He tries to reveal these truths to you.

James,

Is that what Nietzsche’s theories pointed too? So we need religion to keep our morals intact like we need calcium to keep our bones strong? The need to believe is necessary due to certain psychological defects within our mind? Or is it a requirement for us to be able to live in a communal society?

This might be the reason why religion causes so many problems in the modern world. It’s original function was to keep society functioning on a small local scale. Now we are forced to deal with the conflicting religious systems from across the globe.

Nietzsche talks about the loss of objective truth once God dies. Couldn’t this also be said of a region that has many different Gods existing within it?

I’m going to tweet that one!

Dan Hamm,

Your earlier assertion about judgment is a red herring. No amount of evolution will cure us of making judgments.

Judgments are made all the time, by the simplest and the the most intellectually evolved. The only difference is that those who consider themselves more intellectually evolved consider their judgments superior to those less evolved.

Among all the valid criticisms of religion in The God Delusion, the fact that Dawkins believes that non-religious people have achieved a higher level of evolution is one of the worst of his ideas.

Since you are (admittedly) not much of a reader, give this a listen:

Erwin McManus – Is Faith Nonsense?

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Cheers, sorry I haven’t been able to comment more.

You’re all done a decent job at remaining civil. Thanks for that.

I’m curious. Since all religions are based on the belief of a God, why christianity? Why not Judaism, Mormon, Islam, Hinduism, etc.? I am sincere in this question. What makes you believe in Christianity over these other religions? Is it simply based in the society or location in which you were raised or did you come to this conclusion on your own?

Think of the various religions as “truth claims.” One is true, the others may be partially true or completely false. How do you tell which is which?

The “Truth” will stand tests that others won’t. Some religions have no historical basis whatsoever, for example. Christianity does; even the resurrection, perhaps the most difficult claim to believe, is pretty well documented, and there really is no other logical explanation for the testimony of the apostles. To deny the resurrection, you really have to ignore the evidence.

Also, Christianity is different qualitatively from the others. All other religions require human effort to achieve whatever goals are promised. Christianity is the only one that gives it to you for free (sure, many people try to add stuff to it, but that’s what the book of Galatians is all about- to add anything to the gospel is to kill it completely). It is the only religion which actually preaches “good news.” It is not a system, it is merely relationship. I heard someone once say that choosing Christianity is “enlightened self-interest.”

I know that Dan isn’t much of a reader, but I’ll recommend Mark Mittelberg’s new book, “Choosing Your Faith.” It’s quite excellent and is right on point.

I have been amused at the debate between self-proclaimed men of faith, and an openly admitted atheist “DH”. As it goes on and on, its plain to see that there is no hope for salvation of this particular atheist according to my God, which is the God of the Bible (John 3:18). However, I wanted to answer at least one of these ridiculous posts and do so in an upright manor as Peter and Paul have instructed me to do. Not only to refute the ignorant questions of a condemned non believer, but to remind my brothers in Christ of the Word, and how we are to answer using the Word. May God bless you brothers for “fighting the good fight”, and may the Holy Spirit convict those of you who oppose. The law is written on your hearts.

NOTE: I will quote from the Bible and type exactly as written… Therefore, you who do not read God’s Word, note the ‘caps’ when I quote scripture from the new testament. This is written in caps as the author references scriptures from the old testament. I didn’t want you carnal minded men to think I was shouting as ‘caps’ implies in today’s text messaging.

Peter wrote: “Who is there to harm you if you prove zealous for what is good? But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed. AND DO NOT FEAR THEIR INTIMIDATION, AND DO NOT BE TROUBLED, but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame. For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong.” (1 Peter 3:13-17). And in Paul’s pastoral epistle to Timothy he wrote “Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.”

DH says – “If the word of God is the only thing that keeps you from killing, raping, etc, then you should definitely see professional help.”

The true Christian says – It’s not the Word that keeps Christians from doing all those bad things you mentioned, but the fear of the wrath to follow and being apostate from God. “But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” (Rev 21:8)

DH says – “We are all born compassionate human beings. Even animals don’t murder for the fun of it.”

The Bible says, in Romans 3:10-12 “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”

DH says – “We have the brain capacity to reason with each other instead of using our carnal animal instinct which separates man from beast.”

The Bible says, “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.” (Romans 8:7)

DH says – “So do Atheists have morals.? Of course we do.”

The true Christian says – the definition of ‘good’ according to dictionary.com is: morally excellent; virtuous; righteous; pious: a good man. However, the Bible says – “And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.” (Mark 10:18)

DH says – “The point of this thread when it was first started was how do Christians defend a Higher God that commands them to commit what our natural born compassion and instinct tells us is wrong?”

I conclude with not mere words of man. Rather, I quote the Word of God with scripture from the apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians ch.1 first and followed by Romans ch.1. Paul explains it all to the believers and closes the mouths of those who do not. with these words:

“For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, “I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE.” Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, so that no man may boast before God. But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, “LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD.”

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.” For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.” (First paragraph – 1 Corinthians 1:18-31 and second paragraph – Romans 1:16-25)

To DH and the rest of the non-believers who have been silently reading this post:
You may continue to live as you do and as I once did, which you believe to be morally good. I will continue to persevere and to live life as closely as possible to be Biblically defined as righteous. I’d like to ask you to at least keep an open mind for one more moment. If you are right and there is no God who will judge us and condemn us for being sinners as it says in Romans 6:23, then we are both okay. But if I am right and there is a God, it sucks to be you.

From the narrow path,
Len
One Over 99 Ministries
Luke 15:7

Ah yes… Pascal’s Wager. It had to come up sooner or later. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascals_wager

As for the rest of your comment Len, I’m not sure I entirely agree with you. For one, I’m not keen on “us vs. them” terminology.

Secondly, I believe that those who are beyond the scope of redemption are those who know there is a God and decide to actively defy him. Now of course we must balance that with Psalm 14.

The average atheist, as I’ve encountered them, is better described as a naturalist (or an anti-supernaturalist – take your pick). He lacks faith and trust in God because it cannot be proved by empirical means that God exists.

What I will never do – as quite honestly it seems you are doing here – is turn away an honest skeptic. I have met a few dishonest ones and I don’t mind censoring them.

Len,

From your name, “one over 99″, I’m guessing you are referring to Jesus the Good Shepherd, who will leave the 99 to go after one who is lost. It seems that you have forgotten that, or at least the motivation of Jesus in going after one who is lost.

You said, “It’s not the Word that keeps Christians from doing all those bad things you mentioned, but the fear of the wrath to follow and being apostate from God.”

However, true Christians have no fear of wrath. 1 John 4:17-19 says,

“In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. We love because he first loved us.”

Once again, you seem to have forgotten God’s motivation: “For God so LOVED the world” (caps here do imply shouting). Your narrow way doesn’t seem to be the way of Christ, but one of your own making.

I would like to add one final entry for this thread.

As I dearly love my Jesus, I try to show His love to those I interact with, but unfortunately I more often fail than prevail. As Christ talked to the people He did so with love and compassion. I hope that through these printed words that those who do not believe in my Jesus have felt the love in which they were written. Not in malice or an attempt to show superiority, because I am by no means superior. I am simply on a journey with Jesus who has shown me amazing grace that I would be hypocritical if I did not show you Christ’s grace as well. I hope one day you will encounter His grace and know His love for you

We’ve been talking a lot about the atheist vs christian views but what about christians who are struggling with a lot of the same questions? I classify myself as a skeptical christian. I get the ‘by grace through faith’ concept – mostly – but I would really like to _understand_ as well. So I guess I’m hoping for some of the answers DH has been asking for but from a slightly different perspective. Mike has already challenged me to reread the bible from cover to cover, and that’s valuable but I was hoping for more discussion along those lines. The question of OT genocide still bothers me. In the mean time I will review some of the suggested reading…

New thread —> Is “Christian skeptic” a paradox or a legitimate position? —> http://tiny.cc/skeptic

One Over 99 Ministries,

You said “If you are right and there is no God who will judge us and condemn us for being sinners as it says in Romans 6:23, then we are both okay. But if I am right and there is a God, it sucks to be you.”
First of all I am probably less a sinner than most Christians I know. Second of all, if indeed I am right and there is no God, it will suck to be YOU. What a wasted life. I fear no Hell for I don’t believe in it.

Everyone Else,

Good conversations here. Trying to convert eachother is completely pointles (especially given the strength in numbers haha) but I think we understand eachother a bit more. It shouldn’t be a person’s faith that divides us as people. We all have to live together and survive together and understanding eachother is very important. You believe in Christ and in one true God. I believe in nature. But regardless, I think we all believe in eachother!!!

i would love to open this with some sort of “can’t we all just get along” but everyone says that, and no one buys it…
let’s be honest, if i believe in God and you don’t, regardless of how we may view and accept one another’s beliefs, one of us is right and one of us is wrong. if you refuse to research the primary documents fully or if you believe that faith is a purely academic (or psychotic) pursuit, then this is all intellectual masturbation. it might make me feel good to hop on some blog and post my opinion, but it accomplishes nothing. i can tell you all day long that i’m not trying to preach to you (which in my case is accurate because from experience, i suck as a preacher) but in all honesty, i want you to believe what i believe… not because it will justify my beliefs or because it will make me feel smarter to convince you logically (i assure you i feel no such need), but because i deeply care for and pity any man who does not know love and forgiveness in the person of Jesus Christ.
if you have already written off the veracity of the Bible and are waiting for the movie, then don’t waste your time or mine. merriam-webster defines skepticism as (among other things) “the method of suspended judgment… characteristic of skeptics.” in this situation most people posting here (on “both” sides) seem to have decidedly NOT suspended judgment. that’s cool but let’s call it what it is, a sophistic debate about the logical validity of faith, not a discussion about Who God is, what He does, or why He does it.
i encourage anyone posting on this subject to evaluate why he is considering expressing himself in this venue and to act (and type) accordingly, and with a full acknowledgment of his bias and intention.
as for my bias? i am a Christian and not a skeptic… neither am i a genius who understands the mind of God and i have no intention of speaking for Him since He has revealed Himself in His Son (Hebrews 1).