Comments on: Dealing With Atheism http://michaelkrahn.com/blog/2009/09/17/dealing-with-atheism/ Religion, Music, Art, Politics Mon, 30 Aug 2010 23:29:05 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: Michael Krahn http://michaelkrahn.com/blog/2009/09/17/dealing-with-atheism/comment-page-1/#comment-3195 Michael Krahn Tue, 06 Oct 2009 22:44:44 +0000 http://michaelkrahn.com/blog/2009/09/17/dealing-with-atheism/#comment-3195 Andy Doan » Nothing to do with levels or equality per se. And my comment is more general in tone than you're read it. I'm thinking in all contexts. i.e. Whichever discipline you think you are an expert in, you should study what has positioned itself as its opposite. As a Christian, I believe that truth comes from God, yes. I also believe that the people of God are, well, people. Fallible, prone to error, etc. and at times in history this has been obvious. Sometimes the "opposite" view contains a much needed corrective to commonplace or institutionalized error. What could an atheist point of view possibly add to one's faith? Well, it points out some very obvious errors in the modern application of Christian theology - at least as it is lived in North America. Sadly, some atheists see examples of un-Christlike-ness in Christians more readily than other Christians. Know your enemy... interesting. I do hope, Andy, that you've never felt that I consider you to be an enemy. And I have never considered conversing with you to be a waste of time. Andy Doan » Nothing to do with levels or equality per se. And my comment is more general in tone than you’re read it. I’m thinking in all contexts. i.e. Whichever discipline you think you are an expert in, you should study what has positioned itself as its opposite.

As a Christian, I believe that truth comes from God, yes. I also believe that the people of God are, well, people. Fallible, prone to error, etc. and at times in history this has been obvious. Sometimes the “opposite” view contains a much needed corrective to commonplace or institutionalized error.

What could an atheist point of view possibly add to one’s faith? Well, it points out some very obvious errors in the modern application of Christian theology – at least as it is lived in North America. Sadly, some atheists see examples of un-Christlike-ness in Christians more readily than other Christians.

Know your enemy… interesting. I do hope, Andy, that you’ve never felt that I consider you to be an enemy. And I have never considered conversing with you to be a waste of time.

]]> By: Andy Doan http://michaelkrahn.com/blog/2009/09/17/dealing-with-atheism/comment-page-1/#comment-3194 Andy Doan Tue, 06 Oct 2009 20:58:28 +0000 http://michaelkrahn.com/blog/2009/09/17/dealing-with-atheism/#comment-3194 How can a Christian consider atheism the other side of the coin? Wouldn't that put non belief on the same level as belief? Truth in Christianity comes from God, Atheism comes from man. Not equal points of view considered from the side of the Christian. What could an atheist point of view possibly add to ones faith? If it's to know your enemy (or opponent) all that's required to know is that they are sinners and blasphemers in the eyes of the Christian God. Why waste your time? How can a Christian consider atheism the other side of the coin? Wouldn’t that put non belief on the same level as belief?

Truth in Christianity comes from God, Atheism comes from man. Not equal points of view considered from the side of the Christian.

What could an atheist point of view possibly add to ones faith? If it’s to know your enemy (or opponent) all that’s required to know is that they are sinners and blasphemers in the eyes of the Christian God. Why waste your time?

]]> By: Aaron http://michaelkrahn.com/blog/2009/09/17/dealing-with-atheism/comment-page-1/#comment-3193 Aaron Tue, 06 Oct 2009 14:53:17 +0000 http://michaelkrahn.com/blog/2009/09/17/dealing-with-atheism/#comment-3193 Agreed Agreed

]]> By: Michael Krahn http://michaelkrahn.com/blog/2009/09/17/dealing-with-atheism/comment-page-1/#comment-3192 Michael Krahn Tue, 06 Oct 2009 12:40:56 +0000 http://michaelkrahn.com/blog/2009/09/17/dealing-with-atheism/#comment-3192 Aaron » No, I think that's a real danger. It can serve confuse rather than augment. But long-term intentional avoidance of "the other side of the coin" is negligent in my opinion. Aaron » No, I think that’s a real danger. It can serve confuse rather than augment. But long-term intentional avoidance of “the other side of the coin” is negligent in my opinion.

]]> By: Aaron http://michaelkrahn.com/blog/2009/09/17/dealing-with-atheism/comment-page-1/#comment-3191 Aaron Tue, 06 Oct 2009 11:53:49 +0000 http://michaelkrahn.com/blog/2009/09/17/dealing-with-atheism/#comment-3191 If a reader doesn't have a particularly solid understanding of their own belief system, it's probably not wise to engage material that, rightly or wrongly, shreds it (and I would say this of so-called "Christian" books as well). A solid grasp of Christianity, for example, can help readers refute error in a book or commend a valid critique. I believe it also prevents Intellectual exposure is a good and necessary thing, so long as we're prepared to engage intellectually. Or am I just talking nonsense? If a reader doesn’t have a particularly solid understanding of their own belief system, it’s probably not wise to engage material that, rightly or wrongly, shreds it (and I would say this of so-called “Christian” books as well).

A solid grasp of Christianity, for example, can help readers refute error in a book or commend a valid critique. I believe it also prevents Intellectual exposure is a good and necessary thing, so long as we’re prepared to engage intellectually.

Or am I just talking nonsense?

]]> By: Michael Krahn http://michaelkrahn.com/blog/2009/09/17/dealing-with-atheism/comment-page-1/#comment-3189 Michael Krahn Mon, 05 Oct 2009 13:18:11 +0000 http://michaelkrahn.com/blog/2009/09/17/dealing-with-atheism/#comment-3189 Ben, Exactly. Ben,

Exactly.

]]> By: Michael Krahn http://michaelkrahn.com/blog/2009/09/17/dealing-with-atheism/comment-page-1/#comment-3188 Michael Krahn Mon, 05 Oct 2009 13:17:11 +0000 http://michaelkrahn.com/blog/2009/09/17/dealing-with-atheism/#comment-3188 Dan, LOl - yes, it is a reasonable assumption that as a Christian minister I would promote the Bible and encourage you to read it. I have also read The God Delusion and large chunks of God Is Not Great. Intellectual exposure is a good thing. Dan,

LOl – yes, it is a reasonable assumption that as a Christian minister I would promote the Bible and encourage you to read it. I have also read The God Delusion and large chunks of God Is Not Great.

Intellectual exposure is a good thing.

]]> By: Michael Krahn http://michaelkrahn.com/blog/2009/09/17/dealing-with-atheism/comment-page-1/#comment-3187 Michael Krahn Mon, 05 Oct 2009 13:14:56 +0000 http://michaelkrahn.com/blog/2009/09/17/dealing-with-atheism/#comment-3187 Andy, That would be a very odd goal. The goal, for me, is to chase and embrace truth for my entire life. I am always looking to alter and expand my own understanding. If by "firm in your stance" you mean someone who experiences a reasonable degree of certainty in some matters, I would describe myself that way but I wouldn't say that I have to force myself to endure Dawkins or Hitchens. In fact, I think Hitchens is an excellent writer - to the point where I don't even care what his content is, I just want to read him for the strength of his use of the English language. Andy,
That would be a very odd goal. The goal, for me, is to chase and embrace truth for my entire life. I am always looking to alter and expand my own understanding.

If by “firm in your stance” you mean someone who experiences a reasonable degree of certainty in some matters, I would describe myself that way but I wouldn’t say that I have to force myself to endure Dawkins or Hitchens.

In fact, I think Hitchens is an excellent writer – to the point where I don’t even care what his content is, I just want to read him for the strength of his use of the English language.

]]> By: Jason http://michaelkrahn.com/blog/2009/09/17/dealing-with-atheism/comment-page-1/#comment-3172 Jason Fri, 02 Oct 2009 00:18:36 +0000 http://michaelkrahn.com/blog/2009/09/17/dealing-with-atheism/#comment-3172 Oops! IN my previous post I meant to say "I cannot recomment highly enought DBH's book "Atheist Delusions" - it is a great foundation from which to engage atheists"... Oops! IN my previous post I meant to say “I cannot recomment highly enought DBH’s book “Atheist Delusions” – it is a great foundation from which to engage atheists”…

]]> By: Jason http://michaelkrahn.com/blog/2009/09/17/dealing-with-atheism/comment-page-1/#comment-3171 Jason Thu, 01 Oct 2009 22:38:24 +0000 http://michaelkrahn.com/blog/2009/09/17/dealing-with-atheism/#comment-3171 I cannot recommend David Bentley Hart's book "Athiest Delusions" as a great foundation from which to engage atheists. I cannot recommend David Bentley Hart’s book “Athiest Delusions” as a great foundation from which to engage atheists.

]]> By: MentalRover http://michaelkrahn.com/blog/2009/09/17/dealing-with-atheism/comment-page-1/#comment-3162 MentalRover Thu, 24 Sep 2009 04:34:07 +0000 http://michaelkrahn.com/blog/2009/09/17/dealing-with-atheism/#comment-3162 Well, at first it depends on the specific person. Reading and debating atheist material involves theological and philosophical discussion. If one is not interested in this, why bother? Beside that, I strongly recommend reading that stuff, for different reasons. First, I detected that non-believers -which make up the majority in our all-day environment- read this books. They are not without reason put on stage in every book store. So one should be prepared for dialogs. But how should we, without knowing the arguments presented? Second, and that is a very personal experience, those books indeed caused a deep doubt in me, drawing me away from faith. They showed me all the lacks in religious thoughts, church life a.s.o. But keeping in search for the deeper truth, I even studied the critics of this books, and learned the lacks in their perspective as well, I had indeed missed. In the end this back and forth deconstructed broad parts of my faith. But due to this, it could be reconstructed again in a more mature perspective, which was all in all good and necessary. I think isolating oneself of atheistic books does not serve for anything but perhaps for conservation of a weak, unreflected, low-level faith. So I indeed recommend to deal with atheistic books. Well, at first it depends on the specific person. Reading and debating atheist material involves theological and philosophical discussion. If one is not interested in this, why bother?

Beside that, I strongly recommend reading that stuff, for different reasons.

First, I detected that non-believers -which make up the majority in our all-day environment- read this books. They are not without reason put on stage in every book store.
So one should be prepared for dialogs. But how should we, without knowing the arguments presented?

Second, and that is a very personal experience, those books indeed caused a deep doubt in me, drawing me away from faith.
They showed me all the lacks in religious thoughts, church life a.s.o.
But keeping in search for the deeper truth, I even studied the critics of this books, and learned the lacks in their perspective as well, I had indeed missed.

In the end this back and forth deconstructed broad parts of my faith. But due to this, it could be reconstructed again in a more mature perspective, which was all in all good and necessary.

I think isolating oneself of atheistic books does not serve for anything but perhaps for conservation of a weak, unreflected, low-level faith.
So I indeed recommend to deal with atheistic books.

]]> By: Ben http://michaelkrahn.com/blog/2009/09/17/dealing-with-atheism/comment-page-1/#comment-3154 Ben Fri, 18 Sep 2009 18:11:34 +0000 http://michaelkrahn.com/blog/2009/09/17/dealing-with-atheism/#comment-3154 Personally I think it is great to engage in material from an Atheist perspective. Often I find that their criticisms of our religion have an aspect of truth. They are not true of God but too often they are true of the god that the "Christian religion" promotes. In reading their material we may discover how we have made the God of the bible into something else - how we Christians have created idols. Or at the very least we can understand what type of god the world thinks we believe in. Also if our faith is true than it should be able to stand up under the questions and examinations of Atheists. And if it can't... Personally I think it is great to engage in material from an Atheist perspective. Often I find that their criticisms of our religion have an aspect of truth. They are not true of God but too often they are true of the god that the “Christian religion” promotes. In reading their material we may discover how we have made the God of the bible into something else – how we Christians have created idols. Or at the very least we can understand what type of god the world thinks we believe in.
Also if our faith is true than it should be able to stand up under the questions and examinations of Atheists. And if it can’t…

]]> By: Dan http://michaelkrahn.com/blog/2009/09/17/dealing-with-atheism/comment-page-1/#comment-3151 Dan Fri, 18 Sep 2009 15:08:21 +0000 http://michaelkrahn.com/blog/2009/09/17/dealing-with-atheism/#comment-3151 Well, on he other hand, should an Atheist expose themselves with Christian perspective material (Bible). As a minister you would promote your material and encourage us to read it right? Well as an Atheist, I suggest everyone search for their own truth no matter what form of media they may find it in, even if it's the new Dawkin's book or the Bible. Well, on he other hand, should an Atheist expose themselves with Christian perspective material (Bible). As a minister you would promote your material and encourage us to read it right? Well as an Atheist, I suggest everyone search for their own truth no matter what form of media they may find it in, even if it’s the new Dawkin’s book or the Bible.

]]> By: Andy Doan http://michaelkrahn.com/blog/2009/09/17/dealing-with-atheism/comment-page-1/#comment-3147 Andy Doan Fri, 18 Sep 2009 01:14:31 +0000 http://michaelkrahn.com/blog/2009/09/17/dealing-with-atheism/#comment-3147 The answer I would give depends on if your goal is to hold one belief system for your entire life. If so then pursuing this materials isn't unwise but pointless. The only reason to try to understand a different point of view is to expand or alter your own. You can't listen to an argument in good faith if you already know what your opinion must be before hearing it. The only reason why a Christian (who's firm in his stance) should force themselves to endure this stuff is to get information that might help them in proselytizing to atheists. Even this doesn't seem like a very good way to occupy ones time. Atheists don't generally have a unified belief system knowing one might as easily mean becoming one. The real growth area for Christians IMHO is in people who already believe in religious stuff. Besides I don't think atheists are born from media marketed as atheist material. Try Melville or Nietzsche for that. In fact I would love to hear a apologist try to ram these works through the needle hole of their doctrine. The answer I would give depends on if your goal is to hold one belief system for your entire life. If so then pursuing this materials isn’t unwise but pointless. The only reason to try to understand a different point of view is to expand or alter your own. You can’t listen to an argument in good faith if you already know what your opinion must be before hearing it.

The only reason why a Christian (who’s firm in his stance) should force themselves to endure this stuff is to get information that might help them in proselytizing to atheists. Even this doesn’t seem like a very good way to occupy ones time. Atheists don’t generally have a unified belief system knowing one might as easily mean becoming one. The real growth area for Christians IMHO is in people who already believe in religious stuff.

Besides I don’t think atheists are born from media marketed as atheist material. Try Melville or Nietzsche for that. In fact I would love to hear a apologist try to ram these works through the needle hole of their doctrine.

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