Does God Hate Haiti?

One of the best responses I've ever read about this kind of stuff was after the tsunami in 2004 – David Bently Hart's articles for the Wall Street Journal and First Things (and a later intervew with Christian Century) were spectacular, moving beyond simple determinism and the completely ludicrous idea that these terrible events are for the greater glory of God. You can find the articles on-line. They were also published as a book (very small in size and pagination, but big in terms of theological argument) – "The Doors of the Sea".

Here is a sample of the Wall Street Journal article:

"As for comfort, when we seek it, I can imagine none greater than the happy knowledge that when I see the death of a child I do not see the face of God, but the face of His enemy…We can rejoice that we are saved not through the immanent mechanisms of history and nature, but by grace; that God will not unite all of history’s many strands in one great synthesis, but will judge much of history false and damnable; that He will not simply reveal the sublime logic of fallen nature, but will strike off the fetters in which creation languishes; and that, rather than showing us how the tears of a small girl suffering in the dark were necessary for the building of the Kingdom, He will instead raise her up and wipe away all tears from her eyes—and there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying, nor any more pain, for the former things will have passed away, and He that sits upon the throne will say, “Behold, I make all things new.”"

Amen!

Nothing annoys me more about religion or the idea of god than when a disaster like Haiti happens and people start wondering why god would do this? Why would god make thousands of people suffer (Civilians, aid workers) to punish a the few sinners (mainly Haiti's corrupt government). Short answer: He has NOTHING to do with it. Earthquakes are caused by faulting!!! Basic knowledge!!! These are tragedies caused by natural events. If god wants credit can't he come down and throw lightning bolts at those sinners he hates so much instead of killing so many innocent people? Of course not…because that would prove his existence and we all know god don't work that way. He likes to work in invisible ways.
The people of Haiti need REAL help and REAL solutions….god doesn't fulfill either of those needs.

My first thought in answer to your topic title was, "no, God hates sin." Like the post before mine, I am also baffled when people, especially Christians, ask, "why would God DO this" in response to every natural disaster. In my case, I could ask why "God GAVE my son cancer." Ugh. Are we still so dense? An understanding of sin and the consequences of sin is THE foundational component to a Christian's "Christianity." If you lack this basic understanding, how can you claim to be a Christian? The Bible is clear about these matters, look them up. It's all in there.

Sin does not bring consequence…real ife brings consequence. Disasters, blessings, misfortunes, etc. happen to everyone! Christians, sinners, atheists, catholics…….you can try to put a name or face on the cause of it but it doesn't change anything. good and bad things happen to good and bad people. It's called the real world and you are all invited to join me in it.

What is at issue here is our idea of who God is and how he operates. Before I comment any further, I should say that I have convictions about this that I am uncomfortable with. So I'm not trying to teach anyone the "right way to think."

obm – your position is clear: you don't believe God exists, so none of this has anything to do with. You invite us all to join you in the land of "reality" – an invitation we must decline since we are already living there and an invitation to join us there is en route to you.

Kevin – yours is less clear to me. If you believe in God's omnipotence, then you must believe that God CAN stop disease and disaster if he chooses to. If you believe that, then when disease and disaster occur, they occur because he has chosen not to intervene. That is still different than God actively DOING these things… we'll have to leave that for now.

I was at a funeral last year where the victim's mother was trying to explain to her grand-daughter why her daddy had died. (he had been killed by a drunk driver.) Her bottom line was: this happened because someone chose to drive drunk and couldn't stop him.

While this offers some comfort and places blame on the human who did the killing (where it belongs), it also presents a bit of a dilemma: if this God we serve cannot stop a human from driving drunk and killing another human, how can we possibly trust this same God to fulfill the extravagant promises he has made to those who believe in him and are his children?

Even if we attribute thee things ultimately to the consequences of sin, are we saying that these actions are out of his control?

Again, I struggle with these things, so please tell me how you see them Kev, because you have experienced suffering far more immediately and intensely than I have.

Jason, I believe you have the biggest brain in the conversation so your comments are also welcome.

(oh, in neat coincidence, iTunes on random has just chosen to play the song "Blood From a Stone" by Chaliss)

Interesting points. I hope they keep coming
Mike:
Was it a coincidence or pre-destination? LOL

I've always known that I have a rather large noggin'…it's good to know that there are some who think it is actually full of something…

Anyway, before I can offer a more sustained response, let me say first of all that Pat Robertson and his ilk do not speak for me and I am ashamed to have any association with him in terms of our (supposedly) shared faith.

Also, I think Jon Stewart's opening monologue on the Daily Show on the 14th was spot on.

One question to obm – "good" and "bad" are moral categories. How can you have recourse to them if everything is simply a matter of natural occurance? In other words, what is to stop someone from going into your living room, taking a poop on the carpet, and calling such an action "good'? I mean, bowel movements are natural occurances, right? Whose to say whether such an action is good or bad? Maybe this scenario isn't the best, but I'm trying to pose the question with some levity (and I just watched an episode of the Office where such a scenario occurred).

One question to Kevin – is the Bible really that "idiot-proof"? I mean, is it ready to be used right out of the box, "no interpretation required"? Is it really that clear? It takes alot of hubris to make the claim that the Bible is really that self-evident. If it was, the history of theology is lot of spilled ink for no good reason.

The effects of the earthquake in Haiti are horrific. No thinking person did not automatically ask, God, how could you let this happen? Do you even exist?

Writing of the tsunami in 2004, but equally applicable here, David Bentley Hart writes, “Considering the scope of the catastrophe, and of the agonies and sorrows it had visited on so many, we should probably have all remained silent for a while. The claim to discern some greater meaning—or, for that matter, meaninglessness—behind the contingencies of history and nature is both cruel and presumptuous at such times. Pious platitudes and words of comfort seem not only futile and banal, but almost blasphemous; metaphysical disputes come perilously close to mocking the dead. There are moments, simply said, when we probably ought not to speak. But, of course, we must speak.”
What do we speak? The appropriate Christian response is one of lament.

One more thing to add quickly before I forget – the presence and absence of God is always a matter of perspective. For some in Haiti, who are truly living in hell, God is not present. And yet, he is present in his absence.

GOD IS NOWHERE – think about it – it's all in how you read it.

The effects of the earthquake in Haiti are truly horrific. Not thinking person did not automatically ask, God, how could you let this happen? Where are you?

Writing of the 2004 tsunam, but equally applicable here, David Bentley Hart writes, “Considering the scope of the catastrophe, and of the agonies and sorrows it had visited on so many, we should probably have all remained silent for a while. The claim to discern some greater meaning—or, for that matter, meaninglessness—behind the contingencies of history and nature is both cruel and presumptuous at such times. Pious platitudes and words of comfort seem not only futile and banal, but almost blasphemous; metaphysical disputes come perilously close to mocking the dead. There are moments, simply said, when we probably ought not to speak. But, of course, we must speak.”
What do we speak – the approriate Christian resposne is lament and even outrage.

There exists a line that separates heaven from the realm of nature. We must always begin recognizing that God's ways are mysterious and beyond our scope. God is sovereign, and sometimes, we, like the arrogant friends of Job feel the need from our finite minds to explain God's actions, when in reality, they are hidden above that line.

What has God revealed in scripture? That nature is groaning to be redeemed. That God desires the love of Christ to be shown to all creation. That sin has separated us from the way it should be. God was willing to all but damn a blameless man named Job. God blesses the just, and the unjust.

Somehow, all the hurt, the sin, the natural disasters, the suffering, will somehow, and without any aid from our finite understanding, come to fruition and glorify God. This is our hope for creation, and is why we rush to aid those who are hurting, fight injustice, speak out against inhumanity, break down cultural egotism, and be a light for the world. For some reason, God has called his church to be an agent of his redemption. He does not even protect his own children from suffering (many of the Haitians who died knew him and loved him). It seems we must be content to live in the dim of our limited temporal existence, and trust the one who sees all to bring everything to his glory.

The appropriate Christian response is one of lament. Wise words.

Modern atheism is correct in its critique of a doctrine of God that is entirely dependent on the conception of God as the prima causa of all earthy events. Such a god owes more to Greek metaphysics than to the God revealed in the Bible and in creation (cf. Belgic Confession, article 2 lest I be accused of pantheism). In response to the terrible evil and suffering in the world, Christians must acknowledge the atheist critique, in fact, we should even proclaim, along with Moltmann, "For Christ's sake, I am an atheist" because "only a Christian can be a good atheist". We do not serve a capricious god who allows and even causes evil because he is fixated on his own glory. We serve a risen and ascended Lord who has conquered evil, sin, and death.

Appealing to the hidden nature of God's will is to imply that God is ultimately an unknowable essence, closed in on himself, a single immaterial substance, supremely rational and omnipotent and self-absorbed, consumed with and by his own glory. It is nothing more than a projection of human neurology onto God, as if God's infinity were simply the perfection of human finitude.

I will stand alongside Job's friends in questioning this God, for it is not the God revealed in the Bible. He is the Trinitarian God whose "essence" is the relationships between Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, truly Infinite because he is the one who stands beyond the finite and yet creates the conditions for the finite to exist. The Holy Other who is the enemy of evil and suffering, conquering it not so that he may glorify himself, but so that it can no longer destroy his beloved creation. All the hurt, the sin, the natural disasters, the suffering, will never come to fruition and glorify God because God has defeated them on the cross. Evil can never be part of God's glory – to claim otherwise is heresy.

By come to fruition, I simply meant, not be allowed to take away from God's glory. Be allowed to happen. Not interfere with the wisdom of God.

That is, sin will be judged, nature will be redeemed. hurt will be healed, and natural disasters will be no more. God only allows that which will in the end, work together for his own good and in turn, the good of all creation.

Last I checked, a huge earthquake just killed tens of thousands of people. Whereas yes, God has defeated them on the cross, only a delusion person would suggest that this current world is a complete and final reality of the kingdom of God. Or has Jesus already returned and we missed him??

I am quite confused…. You said: "The Holy Other who is the enemy of evil and suffering, conquering it not so that he may glorify himself, but so that it can no longer destroy his beloved creation." So, God is not glorified by rescuing his beloved creation? Your statement makes no sense.

You do know the friends of Job are the "bad guys" right?

I don't think we should be worried about things "taking away" from God's glory; for that matter, I don't think God is worried about it either. So, I don't understand the constant need of some evagangelical theologians to "protect" God's glory by appealing to God as the cause of all things. Please see my eariler comments about God as prima causa and the metaphysical presuppositions therein. It seems as though only the staunchest of evangelicals still ascribe to a theology suffused with Greek metaphysics.

Of course, we are waiting for the eschatological fulfilment of God's promises – where the fruit of Jesus' death and resurrection will be fully realized; but that is not to say that we don't see an inbreaking of that future into the present. I am appealing to the already/not yet nature of God's kingdom; God's victory over sin and death was inauguarated with Jesus' resurrection and ascention, but we are we waiting for the full realization of that vicory upon Jesus' return. So, no, I am not delusional, just nuanced.

Yes, God is "glorified" by redeeming his creation – but he is not glorified by turning evil into good (as if "evil" were an ontological category). Evil has no role or purpose for God; evil is not redeemed by God in terms of some divine prestidigitation whereby evil is turned into good. Sin, evil, and death are conquered. They are/will be banished from God's kingdom.

Yes, I know Job's friends are the "bad guys", but obviously my appeal to them was a rhetorical move as a critique of your view. Moreover, the book of Job itself is an anti-theodicy that complete deconstructs the notion that God is complicit in evil, either by ordaining it, allowing it, or "glorifying" it.

To put it more succinctly, contrary to your earlier post, sin and suffering can never glorify God, "somehow" or otherwise. If they could, Jesus death on the cross was pointless. Evil and death are not redeemable; they are condemnable. To suggest that evil will "come to fruitition and glorify God" is a dangerous position, boderline heresy at best (despite what John Piper et al might claim).

more on the already/not yet tension.

But if the old has passed away [the 'olam hazeh in the crucifixion] and the new has come [the 'olam haba', in the resurrection], why do evil and death remain in the world? Paul’s letters are charged with the same tension between the “already” and “not yet” aspects of the kingdom of God that we have seen in Jesus’ own teachings, but with some differences in emphasis. For Paul, the kingdom is here already in that Jesus’ death brings an end to the old and his resurrectioinaugurates the new. The Spirit is described as a deposit (or down payment) on the coming kingdom (2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; Ephesians 1:14). A deposit is not merely an IOU or promise for the future; instead, it is a real payment given now as a guarantee that in the future the rest will be paid. The Spirit is also pictured as firstfruits, the first part of the harvest, ready to be enjoyed now, and tangible evidence that the remainder of the harvest will also come (Romans 8:23).

Part II (for some reason, it takes ages for my comments to get posted and I have to sperate them into smaller chunks..)
The kingdom has not yet arrived for us in its fullness. We remain in a world that has not yet been fully delivered from the influence of evil, demonic power (2 Corinthians 4:4). We are still surrounded by the darkness of sin and rebellion against God (Ephesians 2:2–3), even while we anticipate the full revelation of God’s kingdom in which those things shall be no more. Thus, in Paul’s thought there is no clearly marked threshold between “the present age” and “the age to come.” We live in the “in-between” time, in which the two ages overlap. Paul goes on to explain that these two ages are allowed to coexist within God’s plan so that the church’s work of mission—the gathering of the nations to the God of Israel—can be accomplished before the final revelation of the kingdom. In fact, God gives this in-between time to the church as its own, to fulfill its calling as his witness to the coming of the kingdom.[*]
[*]Bartholomew, C. G., & Goheen, M. W. The Drama of Scripture

As is obvious in my previous posts, I have a bit of a liking for David Bentley Hart. He wonderfully takes Calvinists to task (I should note, that I myself am part of the larger Calvinist camp – it is a rather "big tent" branch of Protestantism, to the cahgrin of some hyper-Calvinists".

[...] there is a point at which an explanation becomes so comprehensive that it ceases to explain anything at all, because it has become a mere tautology. In the case of a pure determinism, this is always so. To assert that every finite contingency is solely and unambiguously the effect of a single will working all things – without any deeper mystery of created freedom – is to assert nothing but that the world is what it is, for any meaningful distinction between the will of God and the simple totality of cosmic eventuality has collapsed. [...]

"Even if the purpose of such a world is to prepare creatures to know the majesty and justice of its God, that majesty and justice are, in a very real sense, fictions of his will, impressed upon creatures by means both good and evil, merciful and cruel, radiant and monstrous – some are created for eternal bliss and others for eternal torment, and all for the sake of the divine drama of perfect and irresistible might. Such a God, at the end of the day, is nothing but will, and so nothing but an infinite brute event; and the only adoration that such a God can evoke is an almost perfect coincidence of faith and nihilism. (Doors of the Sea, pp. 29-30)

The appropriate response is indeed one of lament.

God has been and always will be in Haiti in a MUCH BIGGER WAY than what you would see in any church in Canada or the USA. Why? Because of the suffering and poverty. Travel to any developing country where they don’t have all the “luxuries” we have and you will see churches that are truly alive because they don’t have all the STUFF. They sometimes have enough to get by, coupled with a FAITH that is deeper and more real than any big brained theologian could ever hope to realize. Haiti has a poverty rate of over 80%. Satanism and witchcraft are common BUT the Church of Jesus Christ is there too – if you followed CNN during the first few days after the quake, you would have seen hordes of believers marching through the streets singing praises to God.

The local Church in Haiti is an instrument in the hands of God and Compassion International is a small part of what God is doing to assist them. A map of the country that shows the churches who have partnered with Compassion is a beautiful sight to see. 230 churches with an army of thousands who volunteer are a very real and tangible proof of God’s love for the people of Haiti. This ministry began in 1968 and now there are over 65,000 children who benefit from what selfless people strive to do every day – break the bonds of poverty, put an end to the suffering and bring the gospel of Jesus Christ to a broken nation. It all began with one man who had a God-given passion to make a difference.

Jesus was unable to perform any miracles in the towns where the people didn’t have any faith so he just passed on through. Most of the people in Haiti have few possessions but they have a faith that puts us to shame. Jesus feels right at home there – miracles are a regular occurrence.

Even God’s chosen people lived in slavery in Egypt for hundreds of years and God judged that nation in order to set them free. Many hope and pray that this disaster will be a tipping point to bring about justice and mercy in a nation that has suffered at the hands of a corrupt government for far too long. The church is rising to the occasion!

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